I am trying to correct an ergonomics issue I have with my 2017 ZX-14R, which involves footpeg location relative to (a) the seating position and (b) the gearshift and brake pedals. Let me explain:

I am only about 5'8" tall, and my inseam is only around 29".

Given the 31.5" seat height of a 2017 ZX-14R, and the generous width of the ZX-14R seat and bodywork, I can get the front part only of my feet on the ground when standing at a light. Given the 592 lb weight of the bike when the fuel tank is full, and the 2 ridiculously heavy mufflers (32 lb total), which are also mounted (a) high and (b) very wide, I do not feel too "stable", especially when the pavement or ground is wet, or uneven, or just gravel.

I have not had this insecurity on other bikes of similar seat height, and with even far higher weight (up to 736 lb), so I have done some testing and measuring, and have developed a plan.

First, I AM going to replace those mufflers with slip-on carbon fiber mufflers from Graves, which will have the triple benefits of:
- reducing weight by a total of 23.6 lb
- Reducing weight that is mounted notably high on the bike
- Reducing weight that is mounted notably wide on the bike (check out a photo of a ZX-14R taken from straight behind, and you'll see immediately what I am talking about)

The graves system won't get to me til April, as Graves wants to first do some measuring and see if their muffler pipes will clear my centerstand, and their first time slot for having both a ZX-14R on hand, and the technicians to do any necessary mods, is early April.

Second, I have ordered a Shorai Lithium battery which will knock 7.8 lb off the bike. (There is a lighter WPS Featherweight battery of only slightly lower CCA, but I can't get it in Canada).

Third, I have my OEM seat at a shop being "scooped" to lower the driver's portion seat height by at least one inch

Fourth, I have discovered that part of the problem is that the footpegs are right in the path where my legs want to come down to the pavement. So, my legs are being forced forward, which makes the path to the ground slightly longer than it could otherwise be.

So, I want to move them either forward or rearward, so that my legs can have a more direct, shorter path to the pavement.

The question is: should I move the footpegs forward or rearward?

The obvious considerations on why this is important to know are:

1. It affects my riding posture, weight distribution, and safety. Moving the footpegs rearward would tilt me a bit more forward, and would put more weight onto my hands. This is not something I particularly want. It would also degrade my safety in that if I am coming to a stop with either my right or left foot coming down just before the actual stop to balance the bike, while the bike is still moving, if my toe gets caught on the pavement or in any pavement or ground discontinuity, the bike's forward motion could hurt my foot or leg pretty significantly. Likewise, on hard forward acceleration from a stop, a footpeg could conceivably force a foot against a pavement discontinuity and injure it. For these reasons, I'd prefer to have my legs BEHIND the footpegs when stopped.

2. Moving the footpegs forward, would tilt me a bit more rearward, and would put more weight onto my seat. This too is not something I particularly want, as the ZX-14R is pretty prone to wheelies as is. But, it would also improve my safety in that if I am coming to a stop with either my right or left foot coming down just before the actual stop to balance the bike, while the bike is still moving, if my toe gets caught on the pavement or in any pavement or ground discontinuity, the bike's forward motion would NOT hurt my foot or leg, as the foot and leg are not "trapped" between the footpeg and the discontinuity. Likewise, on hard forward acceleration from a stop, a footpeg could NOT force a foot against a pavement discontinuity and injure it. Instead, at worst, the foot is simply swung rearward by the acceleration. So, again, for these reasons, I'd prefer to have my legs BEHIND the footpegs when stopped.

3. Whether I move the footpegs forward or rearward, I am changing the distance between the footpegs and the gearshift lever and the brake pedal. I wondered how standardized this measurement is across different bikes. I happen to have access to 4 motorcycles right now, of greatly varying overall size:
The 2017 ZX-14R (555 lb before fuel)
A 2005 ZX-6R (a 636cc, 400 lb before fuel sportbike)
A 2017 Yamaha R3 (a 320cc, 345 lb before fuel sportbike)
A 2018 Kawasaki Z125 pro ( a 125cc, 212 lb before fuel "reduced size bike" - kawasaki's answer to the Honda Grom)

I measured 3 things on each of them:
- Distance from left footpeg to gearshift lever rubber (called "Peg-Gear" below)
- Distance from right footpeg to rear brake pedal (called "Peg-Brake" below)
- Horizontal distance from footpeg to vertical line that intersects the front edge of the operator's seat (called "Peg-Seat" below)

The results are pretty interesting, despite the vast difference in overall bike size AND operator lean angle among the 4 bikes:

Bike Peg-Gear Peg-Brake Peg-Seat

ZX-14R 5.50" 5.25" 3" (Moderate OEM operator lean)
ZX-6R 5.50" 5.62" 3.5" (Significant OEM operator lean)
R3 5.25" 4.00" 2.5" (This bike has aftermarket rearsets and these are STILL the dimensions)
Z125 6" 6" 4.75" (This bike has almost no operator lean)

Notice how despite the big variation in overall size and lean position, the numbers are mostly very similar?

This makes me wonder what the bike's controls will feel like if I move the pegs EITHER forward or rearward.

Since I favor moving them forward, because safety trumps weight shift effects, I wonder if I will need to find a SHORTER gearshift lever and LONGER brake pedal that will fit the ZX-14R (Remember, the ZX-14R gearshift pedal extends "rearward" from its pivot, while the brake pedal extends "forward" from its pivot). The OEM gearshift lever on my ZX-14R is 4.5" long from center of pivot mount to center of rubber "pedal". The mounting hole diameter appears to be about 10mm.

So, my obvious questions:

1. Is this mounting hole diameter "typical" or standard on gearshift levers?

2. How "short" could I make the distance between the pegs and the gearshift "pedal" and brake pedal if I don't change pedals? Since the OEM distances appear remarkably "standardized" at 5.25" to 6" (except for the R3 aftermarket brake pedal side), will I find that I NEED to match these distances by changing my gearshift lever and my brake pedal?

Thoughts?

Jim G

* Last updated by: JimGnitecki on 2/15/2019 @ 9:21 PM *

I unfortunately have the same problem as you. 5'6", 29" inseam. I'm sorry I can't give you a good answer too your question, but I solve the reach by lowering the bike 1" in back and front, and bought some lowered foot pegs. As far as the distance to the gear, brake, pegs I adjusted by moving my feet closer to the pegs. They make adjustable foot pegs that will move the posision closer to your controls. Here's a link for just one example. Adjustable foot pegs

Yeah, I forgot to mention that I do already have a set of "adjustable" pegs on order, that will allow me to move the pegs in any direction up to 2 inches. The question is whether the gearshift and brake pedals will need to be replaced with shorter or longer ones to keep the distance bewteen peg and pedal about where it is, or whether the human body adapts to different peg to pedal distances.

I'm wondering what others have tried. It sounds like you did not change your pedals, but which way did you go (up or down) and how far, with your pegs? (You said you put your feet closer to your pegs, but I assume you meant put your pegs closer to the pedals) :)

Jim G

* Last updated by: JimGnitecki on 2/16/2019 @ 8:17 AM *

Lowering the bike is the only way to get less reach.You'll need to experiment with the toe positions.They can be adjusted,but not too much from what I found.1" drop with pegs should work okay for readjusting those toe positions(for shifting/braking).You won't be adjusting those very much..maybe a spline or two on the shifter,and some on the brake.Good luck!

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 2/16/2019 @ 11:56 AM *

Two fo you now have talked about lowering the footpegs. Why? How would lowering the footpegs help me get my feet more solidly on the ground when standing at a light? (I only have my feet on the footpegs when actually moving.)

What I want to do is simply "get them out of the way" of my legs when standing at a light with my feet on the ground.

Jim G

I think Grn meant lowering the suspension would bring you closer to the ground so you could reach at a stop. Lowering links and a strap for the front or raise the fork tubes as much as is safely possible.

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lowering the pegs isn't gonna give you more reach.You may however try rotating the pegs backwards some to clear your legs.Looks like those you got can do that...yes?Either that or sit closer to the tank when stopped?

"gearshift and brake pedals will need to be replaced with shorter or longer ones"..I think you'll be fine lengthwise.You move your feet a bit anyway when using those controls.May feel a bit odd at first.But it should be okay.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 2/18/2019 @ 4:23 PM *

Rook: I don't want to lower the suspension for technical reasons (ground clearance, fender to radiator clearance, loss of rear suspension travel, etc).

Grn14: I think you might be right. I have the seat back from the upholstery shop for a trial fit, with about an inch of foam cut off. It feels notably more stable. Now, looking at the current interference between legs and pegs, I can see that I need to move the pegs rearward just a bit. Moving them forward would make things worse, because it would force my legs to angle rearward instead of straight down, AND my legs would also encounter the cones of the transition from pipes to mufflers.

Alos, since the current shift lever is only 4.5 inches c-t-c from pivot to pedal, I am not going to be able to find a shorter one, if I find I need one. But if I move the pegs rearward, I can easily find a longer shift lever! :)

When I get the offset pegs from China (which are just getting to Canada right now I think), I'll trial fit them about an inch rearward and see how that feels for leg clearance, and also for gearshift operation.

Jim G

Here's a photo showing:
- where I sit on the seat (veyr far forward to reach the bars)
- How my legs are forced forward by the footpegs when standing at a stop

The offset fotopeg mounts should enable to move the footpegs rearward and straighten out my legs.

Jim G

'I have the seat back from the upholstery shop for a trial fit, with about an inch of foam cut off'..yep.I forgot about that.I've 'lowered' several that way.IF you lower the frame 1/2 inch.along with the seat an inch,you should be fine.Lowering the frame 1/2 inch is barely noticeable,except on the foot reach.You'll maintain almost all dimensions of a stock setup.Without compromising anything.Yeah..hitting those pegs like that are a pain.Going back an inch should clear that up nicely.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 2/18/2019 @ 7:27 PM *

Grn14: Would it be easier, and better, to have the upholsterer take out another half inch? Or would that make the seat TOO thin for decent ride comfort?

Note how far forward I sit, so I am nowhere near that "shallow foam" section where the seat surface tilts upward and so does its frame. Think I could simply have the upholsterer scoop out an additional half inch? (He sent the seat home with me to "try it", in case I want more done. In the photo above, he has the seat vinyl only "temporarily stapled" right now over the foam.)

Jim G

I think you could get by taking another 1/2 inch off.Depending how it feels right now.Any hot spots or hard areas?I've shaped a few of mine with about a 1/2 inch foam only.They worked okay.Long as it's not jarring on bumps or anything.Or on the sides where your inner thighs are at.Don't want that too thin right in there(for cornering and such).

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 2/19/2019 @ 12:38 AM *

The offset fotopeg mounts should enable to move the footpegs rearward and straighten out my legs.

Should help you get your feet back another half inch. I have rearsets adjusted all the way back and all the way up. My calves still are touching the pegs when I stop.

It doesn't look like you need the seat lower from the pic. You could go with 16" rims to lower the bike a bit too. IDK what 16" tires cost or what variety they come in. It would drop you some weight but cost you big bucks in aftermarket rims. Also, seems like that would cost you some cornering clearance but they use 16" rims for road racing so IDK.

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I'm going to have the upholsterer take another half inch off simply because:
- It is the simplest and least costly thing I can do
- I noticed no degradation in comfort from the one inch already taken off.

The custom upholstery guy is charging me only $100 CDN = $75US for the lowering, which makes it a bargain compared to ANYTHING else I can do.

I realize that many would say that I am already low "enough" with the one inch off. But, the ZX-14R weighs "only" 590 lb with full tank of fuel, while my last Harley Breakout weighed 735, and the Harley felt SO much more planted at a standstill, mainly because:
- It was very narrow, with no high, wide, and heavy mufflers hanging out
- It was very low overall
- Its seat height was around 26", which made a HUGE difference, because I could not only get my feet VERY flat on the ground, I could actually exert FORCE downward through my legs because I had a lot of angle at my knees. Even sloped pavement was no concern.

The absolutely most comfortable bike to balance at a stop that I have ever been on was a custom built by a local shop using a Honda VTX1800 engine/tranny/driveshaft in a frame low enough to create a 24" seat height behind the engine. That bike was AWESOME for me. No effort at all. I could have sat there forever. The builder had set it up with forward foot controls which put a lot of weight on the thin seat, but allowed a comfortable foot placement when riding. Not the greatest for handling control via body and leg pressure when riding, but it was after all a cruiser, not a sportbike!

One motorcycle handling book I read noted that for a motorcycle, any height above ground level represents "potential energy" that the bike is always ready to convert into downward motion, which the rotational moment of inertia of the wheels and crankshaft (only in bikes where the crank runs across the bike)resist.

In motion, the wheels are the biggest contributor via their large diameter, and the crank the second biggest by its higher rpm. But when you are at a stop, the crank rpm is low and the wheels contribute zero, so the bike is in its most unstable state.

Ironically, when you put on lightweight wheels, like the BST carbon fiber wheels especially, you improve both handling agility and linear acceleration via the reduced rotational moment of inertia, but you dramatically hurt the low speed moment of inertia, making parking lot maneouvers and u-turns more risky, making front wheel brake usage at low turn speeds an even bigger sin. I have felt that reduced stability at low speeds on both motorcycles I have ridden with BST wheels, but the improved handling and acceleration agility were more than worth it!

Jim G

My finished seat is 1 1/2 inches thick and like Grn mentioned, I left teh sides full . Being a lite weight helps when it comes to amount of cushion needed for comfort. As I mentioned earlier, I have spent all day on teh seat to see if I could go 300 miles or so with no discomfort . One important factor was that I trimmed teh top off leaving the bottom stock as teh shape of course. fits teh seat perfectly as Kawasaki intended. Even tho the seat now measures a full two inches at the shortest ( front) portion, the gain is a not quite 2 inches as teh foam is a bit stiffer now and so does not collapse at teh same rate, We are only talking about a 1/4 inch or so tho.
The cut seat really helps at teh drag strip for holding position at teh lites.. I switch back to stock with pillion cover for LSR due to smoother air flow.

* Last updated by: chrly on 2/19/2019 @ 12:19 PM *

Chrly: THAT's an excellent before and after comparison in the 2 photos! I had no idesa you could take off 2" ad STILL have 1-1/2 inches left! I am a bit heavier (194 before riding gear). But I don't need to go quite to 2 inches cut off. 1-1/2 inches would be ideal for me.

And I do get your point about leaving the side edges intact. Plus, I see how the "steep" section right behind where you sit stabilizes you on launch, and would do so even just on hard street acceleration from a stop or moving in the lower gears.

Thank-you! That is VERY helpful. I'm going to show the photos to my upholsterer.

Jim G

Ironically, when you put on lightweight wheels, like the BST carbon fiber wheels especially, you improve both handling agility and linear acceleration via the reduced rotational moment of inertia, but you dramatically hurt the low speed moment of inertia, making parking lot maneouvers and u-turns more risky, making front wheel brake usage at low turn speeds an even bigger sin. I have felt that reduced stability at low speeds on both motorcycles I have ridden with BST wheels, but the improved handling and acceleration agility were more than worth it!

Thanks Jim. That is an interesting observation. Makes sense. My feeling is that traction in a corner becomes more of a concern with lighter wheels.

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Rook, all the theoretical analysis, AND actual rider reports, seems to say that lighter wheels are better, whether straightline or in a corner, because their lower moment of inertia enables faster, more precise, and more sensitive suspension reaction to pavement imperfections. Here's why - but with a caution:

Pavement imperfections can cause the bike to lose traction by allowing the wheel to "leave the ground" momentarily, which of course means a complete loss of traction. But even if the wheel only PARTIALLY unloads, it's still a REDUCTION in traction, since traction is proportional to the instantaneous weight on that wheel.

Lighter wheels allow the wheels to more faithfully follow the pavement,since their moment of inertia AND mass are both lower.

HOWEVER . . .

Lighter wheels also reduce UNsprung weight rather dramatically.

That means your suspension has to be altered to match the new unsprung weight.

When you have changed over to lighter wheels, have you also investigated, with professional suspension guru help, what changes should be made to the suspension? if not, this might be your issue.

One other thing: lightweight wheels reduce the "dampening" effect for the rider that heavy wheels have when they encounter any pavement imperfection. Normal OEM wheels are so heavy that they "hide" many of the forces that they encounter. I myself have notice when getting onto a BST-wheel equipped bike that I can detect pavement imperfections, bearing imperfections, brake rotor imperfections, etc. that I did not before realize were even there. On my now 299 lb Yamaha R3 with BST wheels, those effects floored me the first time I rode it with the BST wheels. I thought maybe the shop that installed the tires on the wheels had not balanced them correctly! This effect too may be manifesting on your bike. Most riders WANT more "sensitivity" in their bikes, but are often startled when they get it.

Imagine yourself walking, first in heavy winter boots, and then in lightweight running shoes. If you have been walking all winter in the boots, and then on a warm dry day put on the running shoes, you are going to feel a lot "livelier" but also every disturbance, now not being dampened by heavy footwear, will feel "hyper".

Jim G

* Last updated by: JimGnitecki on 2/20/2019 @ 5:23 PM *

Jim you keep talking about light weight wheels and you are going to cost me a lot of money :)

Yes, chrly. I myself have paid the big bucks TWICE (2 different bikes, 15 years apart). It's much worse in Canada, where I live now and where I bought the 2nd pair: You take the U.S. price and then:

- Multiply by the current US / Canadian exchange rate (currently 1.38 on a credit card purchase online)
- Add on 12% Canadian Federal and provincial sales tax
- Add on a duty (WHY do we put duty on something we don't even MAKE in Canada?)
- Add on the "brokerage fee" from Canada Post or UPS or Fed Ex
- Pay a ridiculous shipping charge, because we are such a LARGE country with only 1/10 the population of The U.S.
So, in Canada we often pay about 1.7 to 1.8 times what you pay in The U.S. :(

That's why I won't be buying carbon fiber wheels for my 2017 ZX-14R . . .

By the way, since you drag race:

I wrote vehicle acceleration modeling software about 20 years ago, and model the performance of my own bikes and cars and other interesting vehicles. Long ago, I found that carbon fiber wheels typically take about two tenths off a quarter mile time on a STREET bike. A DRAG bike would conceivably see a bigger benefit.

This is because normal street bikes quickly get to the point where wind resistance becomes a lot greater force than weight is. So, the benefits for a street bike occur mostly in the 0 to 60 mph speed range, with just minor benefits beyond 60 mph. BUT, a drag bike is still accelerating hard at 150 mph or more, so I suspect (have not modeled it yet though) that a drag bike would see bigger benefits because the benefits continue into the higher speed ranges.

HOWEVER, BST says that you MUST use their heavier duty series wheels for drag racing, because when the bike comes down hard from a strong wheelie, it can overload the standard front wheel and damage it.

Jim G

When you have changed over to lighter wheels, have you also investigated, with professional suspension guru help, what changes should be made to the suspension? if not, this might be your issue.

No. I just set preload according to suggested sag measurements and used some common sense on the damping. Seemed to work better than the settings from the shop. The rear shock was way too stiff from the shop. Front too soft. Now I have Ohlins front and rear and I just put them on as they were set for a guy about my weight on a ZX-14. The traction concern I spoke of is the sensation that the rear wheel might spin and drift in a corner. I have always been very light on the throttle in cornering because of this but it feels more touchy with my Carrazzeria wheels. I think it's just hp and I don't want to get rid of that.

HOWEVER, BST says that you MUST use their heavier duty series wheels for drag racing, because when the bike comes down hard from a strong wheelie, it can overload the standard front wheel and damage it.

There is a 16" front that is reinforced. I think the weight was not so much more than the regular 17" front. Also compare the Rapid TEK BST front which I believe has a static weight tolerance is as high as it gets for BST.

* Last updated by: Rook on 2/21/2019 @ 7:03 AM *

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Jim "By the way, since you drag race:

I wrote vehicle acceleration modeling software about 20 years ago, and model the performance of my own bikes and cars and other interesting vehicles. Long ago, I found that carbon fiber wheels typically take about two tenths off a quarter mile time on a STREET bike. A DRAG bike would conceivably see a bigger benefit."

The wheels I am interested in are teh Marchesini Forged Aluminum..

Interesting stuff, that software you mentioned.. If I were only smart enough to understand todays' electronics :) Outside of assorted radar gear while in the navy in late 50s, I have no formal training.
Today I have to load a fuel map into my Power Commander as I just switched to Brocks Alien Head 2 setup with a Guhl reflash of my ECU.
Waiting for teh garage to get a lil warmer thn 38 degrees to do anything tho :)

* Last updated by: chrly on 2/21/2019 @ 9:28 AM *